Q&A: Anna Shoemaker’s ‘Counting’ is Worth the Wait
INTERVIEW
INTERVIEW
☆ BY SHEVON GREENE ☆
Photo by Josefine Cardoni
HEALING LOOKS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE—for Anna Shoemaker, it involves a long run through her hometown, a stop at 7-Eleven for a Diet Coke and another attempt of convincing herself that she’s ready to let someone go.
Returning with her first release of the year, Shoemaker’s latest single “Counting” is a pivotal yet natural shift of her songwriting, where she embraces the folk and Americana influences that have lived in the background of her indie-pop roots all along. The song is all about “keeping score in a game you’ve already lost,” keeping track of every unanswered text, every red flag and every reason someone isn’t right for you, all while still hoping for a call.
During our conversation, Shoemaker admitted “Counting” wasn’t a song that arrived already fully formed. Instead, it took a lot of patience, collaboration and willingness to push through the discomfort of a writing process that most of the time didn’t come naturally. As she looks back, though, it’s become one of the songs she’s proudest of; not just because of where it landed sonically, but because it represents a version of herself who had evolved enough to write it.
Luna caught up with Shoemaker to talk about the slow-burn process behind “Counting,” returning home for its music video, finding inspiration in Silver Linings Playbook and why sometimes the songs worth fighting for take the longest to write. Read below for more.
Photo by Josefine Cardoni
LUNA: You've said Someone Should Stop Her was kind of an intentional evolution in your songwriting, but listening to "Counting," it felt like another shift as well. When did you realize there was still another side of your sound that you wanted to explore, and how did that come about?
SHOEMAKER: I think it's just natural growth. Working with different people, you'll get different things out of yourself. When it comes to "Counting," that's definitely a side of my writing I'd wanted to explore for a while, and sonically it felt really natural for me.
I wrote that song with an amazing producer, Jim [Alexander], who's from Australia, and it really came together naturally. We got coffee and talked about loving Tyler Childers and country music, but also both being firmly planted in the indie-pop world and wanting to blend those influences together.
For me, it's really important to have that North Star while also being realistic. I love country music, folk and Americana, but I still feel very rooted in my indie-pop roots. Being able to experiment is really fun for me, but this definitely felt like a really natural shift.
LUNA: What was the most surprising thing you learned from working with Jim, whether it was about yourself, your writing, or anything else?
SHOEMAKER: This song definitely wasn't easy to write. I don't know if it's because I'm lazy or what, but I love when a song comes really easily. I mean, everyone loves that. A lot of songs will tell you where they're going within five or ten minutes. You have that inspiration right away.
This song wasn't necessarily like that, and I get really frustrated when that happens. I kind of thought, "Maybe this isn't it. Maybe we're not doing it." Jim really pushed me. He was like, "Come on, we've got it." We kept putting the puzzle pieces together. It was definitely a struggle, but I think it taught me to be more patient. His patience really inspired me. I was like, "Okay, if he's going to fight for this, we've got to buckle down."
It ended up being so great. I really love where we landed, and I'm really glad we stuck with it. It was also really hot that day in the studio, and all of the vocals on the song are from the original demo. I never redid them because I really liked how they sounded. I think I was so hot, overwhelmed and stressed out that it kind of worked its magic.
LUNA: That's so cool that you decided to stick with the demo vocals. It's also kind of nice to have that creative challenge sometimes. Clearly the end product speaks for itself. Moving on to the music video, I really loved it. It felt so natural watching you move through familiar places—walking, running, sitting by the train tracks, stopping at 7-Eleven. What inspired you to film it in your hometown, and did going back there unlock anything creatively?
SHOEMAKER: I tend to always do this to myself. On my last record, I recreated moments from my personal life that were really painful, so I had to relive them again. For this one, I had moved back into my parents' house briefly about two years ago. I was going on these mental health runs that would eventually turn into walks where I'd get a Diet Coke from 7-Eleven or sit at Rita's feeling really depressed, wondering what was going on with my life. I wanted to recreate that.
I really love Silver Linings Playbook, and that was a huge inspiration. When Bradley Cooper is running and Jennifer Lawrence comes running after him—that movie is set right around where I grew up. There's something really specific about running through the Philly suburbs when you're really depressed. It does something to you. I wanted to recreate that because this song is about being at the end of your rope and being so frustrated with someone. At that point, there's nothing left to do except turn inward because you can't control other people. It's like, "Okay, I have to remove myself from this situation. I'm going to go for a run without my phone and drink a massive Diet Coke from 7-Eleven."
LUNA: Were there any other films or visual references you kept coming back to while building the world around this song, or was Silver Linings Playbook the main one?
SHOEMAKER: That was definitely the biggest visual reference for this video. I'm always on Pinterest, though. I love the image of a woman who's kind of at the end of her rope, having a "What is going on?" moment. I really relate to that because there are these periods in between the bigger, exciting moments—between tours or between putting out an album and promoting it—where you feel suspended in time. I'm really drawn to that feeling. What is that space between the highs and the lows?
LUNA: I love that. And I love that you said Pinterest because I go on Pinterest for inspiration all the time.
SHOEMAKER: I love Pinterest. Scrolling on Pinterest feels good for my brain.
LUNA: I know! It almost feels healing. I've read in previous interviews that making music almost feels like reading your diary. Did "Counting" feel like another diary entry, or did it feel completely different? Or maybe a little bit of both?
SHOEMAKER: That's a really good question. I definitely think it comes from that diary place, but it wasn't the same kind of stream-of-consciousness writing. It wasn't one big brain dump. This one was written with a lot more intention. We really had to bring out our songwriter selves. A lot of my songs in the past have been more like word vomit, but with Jim, we were building off each other. It became less of a brain dump and more about working on our craft.
Photo by Josefine Cardoni
LUNA: Yeah, for sure. Is that something you want to keep exploring—collaborating and writing in that way? Or do you also want to keep doing the diary-entry style where you're just letting your feelings out? Maybe it's a mix of both.
SHOEMAKER: Yeah, I think it's definitely a mix of both. I really love challenging myself, but if I go too far down that road, I can get discouraged sometimes. When I do my brain-dump kind of writing, it feels really cathartic. When I'm trying too hard to write a song, it can feel like pulling teeth. It really did feel a little like pulling teeth when we were writing "Counting," and I can get so impatient. It almost always pays off...but there's no worse feeling than when it doesn't. When you're pulling teeth to write a song and then you don't even like the song.
It's funny; I didn't even listen to "Counting" after we wrote it for a few months because I didn't see the text with the bounce, so I just never listened to it. Then Jim sent it to another friend, who sent it to me, and I was like, "Wait...I love this song that we did." It was really a slow burn in my life.
LUNA: There was a line you said about "Counting" being like keeping score in a game you've already lost. I wanted to ask a little more about writing this song specifically. I know you talked about it being harder to write, but was it cathartic? Did it make you relive those emotions again? What was the emotional process like while writing it?
SHOEMAKER: Definitely. Whenever you're writing a song, you can kind of take yourself out of it and separate yourself from the emotions a little bit. It's similar to performing a song. But while we were writing this one, we really wanted to get into that feeling of being so frustrated. We definitely put ourselves in that place. It always ends up becoming funny, though. We end up laughing about it. It's almost like you're talking about a character.
LUNA: Is there anything about "Counting" that still feels representative of who you are today? Are there still parts where you're like, "Yeah, I can still relate to this?" Or do you feel like, "That was a certain point in my life, and I don't really identify with it anymore?"
SHOEMAKER: I can totally relate to "Counting." It doesn't even have to be a romantic situation. Friendships can be like this too. I think it relates to a lot of different situations where you're frustrated with someone who's kind of messing up and moving weird.
LUNA: Your music has always documented really specific chapters of your life. When you listen to "Counting" now, what do you think it captures about this version of yourself that maybe your past music couldn't?
SHOEMAKER: Wow, that's a really good question. I think, for me, it's really about working to write a song—being detail-oriented and really working on my songwriting. I'm really proud of this song, both writing-wise and sonically. I think I could've only gotten to this song by continuing to work on my writing and figuring out how I wanted everything to sound. I don't think I would've been able to write this song before because it was such a push.
LUNA: Sometimes you just need that push. In the music video, you have your wired earbuds in the whole time. In that moment, what do you think you'd actually be listening to? Or who are some artists you've been listening to lately?
SHOEMAKER: I think, if I were actually on a mental health run, I'd probably be listening to a podcast. But maybe Lana Del Rey, Kacey Musgraves or Alex G. It is true, though. Sometimes when I'm in that state of mind, I'll just torture myself and listen to Lana Del Rey.
LUNA: Honestly, even when I'm in a good place, I'm like, "I'm still going to throw on Lana anyway. I don't care."
SHOEMAKER: I was literally listening to Lana yesterday, and then I went to a workout class, and they played "Get Free." I was like, "Yeah...sometimes it feels like there's a war in my mind, for real."
LUNA: That's so funny.
SHOEMAKER: I love Lana. I think she's one of the greatest songwriters, at least for me, because there's so much detail, so much lore, so much of everything. Oftentimes it feels so personal that it almost becomes impersonal. I really admire her.
